"What are hands?"

[wolven7]

In response to a certain Coyote, because it's Shiny.

This is a circle in which I've traveled often. The problem resting in the central question of to whom is what guaranteed? If everyone has the right to their levels of ignorance and inaction (which I fully grant that they do), then do I not also have the right to strive to bring them out of that place?

One cannot unsee what one has seen, most of the time. Not without a full system restart, anyway. But one can only ever compare what one has with what one knows one does Not have. Slavery is only slavery in comparrison to freedom. Without freedom, slavery is simply Life. By that same token, one cannot unsee the basic inequality in being perpetually Less Than someone else. Therefore, any with eyes will know that the scraps they have lend them the power only to work the remote, more like than not, and that those who have the full table spread before them have the greater options.

Mixed metaphors abound.

My point is simply this: I understand and respect that some will not want to "ascend," "transcend," "descend" on, in any other way, Scend their personal limitations. This is because they don't seem them as limitations. They see them as The Way Things Are™. Comforting, careful, wonderful. Natural, and therefore Good, because pretty much Everyone commits taht falacy, at some point or another. I respect that, I really do. But I also think that I have the Right to put the options out there, for all who Are ready, who Do want for "more" (It's not more; it's barely even different). Because the space has to be filled, and if I want to fill it, who's to say I shouldn't?

If others don't want it to be filled? They can not Watch This Space.

The same goes for the rest of you.

When no one is special, everyone is. Diversity is the most wonderful thing in the world.


I think you should have the choice.

Comments

[sadistic-apollo.livejournal.com]

Glitter Suit: +10 def against all Raven based attacks

[wolven.livejournal.com]

They'd pick you apart for the pieces *Grins*

[sadistic-apollo.livejournal.com]

who said i'd be wearin it?

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Good good. :)

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

*mesmerized*

[sadistic-apollo.livejournal.com]

enjoy your complimentary Glitter Hat!

You'll be the life of the party now =)

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

I'll bet that woman probably doubles as a porn star...

[scamort.livejournal.com]

It's the biggest lie that the Powers That Be Forever have perpetrated on humanity.. they feed us their bullshit and tell us that it's apple pie, that it has always been apple pie, and that it always will be apple pie.

"People are dumb. It's just the way things are."
"Can we teach them?"
"NO. THEY WILL ALWAYS BE ANGRY AND IGNORANT."
"Who is they?"
"The Masses."
"Aren't we a part of the masses?"
"No, I am special and unique and better than everyone else."
"So, What about someone who is more special and more better than you? Does he view you as part of the masses? If so, does that mean that you cannot better yourself because you will always be angry and ignorant?"
"...yes."

ARGH.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

That's about the way of it. "The Powers that be" aren't really there.

Fnord.

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

What about those who simply don't see any way around it? No matter how many times it's been Shown, it's still belonging to other people, and not themselves. It may not be How Things Are, but it's how THEY are.

By 'those' I mean me, really. Conquering the idea that everyone is better than you, or at least that no one is special, isn't hard when surrounded by those whom you dislike, and can see the flaws you want to transcend, in. It's a lot harder when you respect, and therefore tend to place above yourself, those around you. You've shown me all the tools, but I have yet ton convince myself they're for my use, that I Can use them. No matter what anyone says.

I'm not looking for compliments, or pity. It's an annoying thing to watch in yourself, and still have no idea how to change.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I don't know, honestly. It's got to come to a point where you bootstrap. You'll have to be in a situation where what you can do is plainly evident, because you Have To Do It.

Other than that, I don't know of any way to kickstart...

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

But to the original...question? Idea?

People won't see the option if they totally don't want any part of it. They probably won't encounter the lot of us, that's for sure. Our circles don't tend to contain those who want to remain ignorant.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but they're there. Knowledge to a Point, and is that knowledge at all?

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

It is. The ability to choose how far you go, and where you go, are inherently intertwined. You have to have the filter, there, in order for everything Not to hit you all at once, and in order for any of that incoming knowledge to make any damned sense. Otherwise, you're just taking it all at once, and with no structure, no frame of reference, just a mental assrape.

I still stand by what i once said; that those who don't exercise their free will probably don't deserve it. I'd like to reintroducve people to the idea that they have it, and that they should respect it, but I also stand by that some will always remain ensconced in the Universe's filters. If there's noting to push against, nothing to conquer, what's the point? Conflict creates the necessity for adaptation and betterment. The idea that we will always have a challenge in this, that people will probably always be stupid and willfully ignorant creates the want to prove or MAKE otherwise.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I still feel that everyone deserves to be given the chance and the choice. Deserved by virtue of what? Me. My choice is to provide choice to those who may not understand that choice.

The balance will always be there, in some form or another. But there needs to be imbalance, for there to be true balance. There has to be a different angle of attack, at some point, otherwise it's all only very complicated stagnation.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

You have the right to choose that you will present more options. One has the right to decide they need no such options. What if they do not need these options? How is that you can decide for them what is and is not acceptable? What if they have considered the options and even exercised some of them, but disagree that your tools are of any use because their situation is not bad? Would it not be akin to your other argument about Hell not necessarily being Evil?

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Then fuck 'em. If they don't want to, there are plenty who Will.

And if there aren't, then I Will.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

Not sure if you are responding to me or mech_angel, but my point is are you deeming someone's level of knowledge as insufficent simply b/c it does match your own? Or are you specifically targeting those who acknowledge their situation, claim they do not approve of it, yet ignore any attempts to help them find a path away from it?

If the former, than I guess I pose the same response as Brandon in that why should they listen to you or anyone else? To that end, why is your way "better" just b/c it is yours? Maybe they once walked your path, but feel their present one is the true one.

If the latter, than sure, fuck em out of the way.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Mainly the latter. The former, as well, because, as we realise, later down the line, if people want things "better" knowledge of context and situation is usually the best way to acheive that, rather than complacence, and quiesence. The less you know, the less you can do to change the terrible things in your life, the more you're going to bitch and whine about it, and the more tempted i'm going to be to simply smack you, really hard, across the face.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

In a general sense, take the POV that whoever is demonstrating a way to be different than how you are is still like you. They are human. You both have the same foundation and starting point, or had the same starting point. For a reason that is personal to their situation, and therefore irrelevant to yours, they changed. They demonstarted to themselves that they could change and did so.

You first have to admit to yourself that just b/c you are not as..."high" as you want to be does not mean that you cannot get there. You also have to admit that those you consider higher than you were once as low as you, yet they moved. If they can, you can, and you can either use the tools they present or develop your own. They had a specific case that allowed them to Scend. Their tools may not be compatible with your case, but that only means you must manipulate those tools. You coerce, persuade, synthesize, amalgamate, whatever and then you do.

And even look at it like this. if your mind was able to elevate these people, then your mind can bring them crashing back down. You have all the power that you allow yourself to have and none of the power that you keep from yourself.

You certainly have a right to desire, anything more intrudes upon the autonomy of others

[mr-hinzelmann.livejournal.com]

You discuss placing the opinions out there, but you have yet to traverse the normative chasm. Why is it better? Why should those adrift at sea look to your beacon. There is Coyote's lesson. You cannot traverse the rift between perspective without sacrificing values. Before people can have the discussion and make a legitimate choice, they have to go completely ontological. You can only go all the way out by being oppressed all the way in. Experience bares this out - the Buddha being the archetypical example. to make a legit, imateinformed choice, you have to have had imposed upon you the whole of the normative field, or at least so much of the normative field that the shape of the whole becomes apparrent to you. We then arrive at Bastiat's problem - who are you, one that espouses choice and autonomy, to impose upon others a lack thereof in the name of their betterment to elevate themselves and make what you would label an informed choice, even if that choice is to return to ignorance. Which leads us square to the problem of synergy, it is easy to justify this imposition in a diadic realtionship (teacher/student, parent/child etc.). It is difficult to justify the impositionof this upon the whole of society. We can make the leap without making sacrifices to the purity of our philosophy.


As far as the Powers That Be, they are there because they are allowed to be there, they are those that manipulate the social norms from which rises the societal system. While societal trancendence is possible, the necessity of human interdependence will give rise to rules of contract. People will bargain for protection against one another. There will be some ordering. It is anarchy that necesitates contract. Once there is contract, there is power for someone to wield. The question is can we agree to limit and structure that power in a way that all parties would find reasonable. Not to sound overly Critean, but this is a dangerous game until you've already dealt with Rawls, Nozick, Rousseau, Bastiat, Lock, Hobbes, Nietchze, Levi-Strauss, Mill, Aristotle, Hart, Dworkin, and Aquinas; or at least know what there positions are. Or, don't think your making informed decisions until you've mastered the breadth of the normative field.

Re: You certainly have a right to desire, anything more intrudes upon the autonomy of others

[wolven.livejournal.com]

My way is better.

Your way is better.

Her way is better.

Their way is better.

Better is worse.

Normative statements are made every day, with little more knowledge than that the sun appears to be shining, and thus we have our current system. These statements are also made with more knowledge than any of the above.

I really just don't care anymore.

Do what you think you need to do.

And I'll do the same.

Re: You certainly have a right to desire, anything more intrudes upon the autonomy of others

[mr-hinzelmann.livejournal.com]

If you get all the back around to "I'm ok, you're ok." Have you really gotten anywhere at all?

Re: You certainly have a right to desire, anything more intrudes upon the autonomy of others

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Well, Yes. Because, like realising hat you know nothing, after years of study, you now have a context. And, really, some form of context is something anyone needs.