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wolven7Faith & The Muse - [Sredni Vashtar]--- And i'm still not going to tell you said plan. What i am going to do is tell you the effects of my plan, and what it means, for the world. (AiBoFoRcEn - [Plasticsos]). Because, honestly, i want a unified world government. Equality, individuality, nationality, but understanding. Yes! We Know i'm an idealist, so shut the fuck up for a second, and let me talk!
In my opinion, and through my observation, there is... only one way, for the people of this planet to live in peace-- real peace, not peace-because-war-will-destroy-us-all-- and that is through heavy and displayed extremes. Only when people realise that their lives are falling to shit, and that they are dying, every day, for things that could be... settled other ways, do they Stop, and try to fix shit. (Franz Ferdinand - [Take Me Out]). And if that's what it takes, to get people to see it... well, that's fucking sad, but we can work with in that. We'll just do it a lot faster than the usual. Right now we're on a slow build of corruption, apathy, and degredation, within various governmental systems, around the world. People are claiming to hold and protect their ideals, when they are holding and wiping their asses with them, instead. Freedom, peace, justice, equality, honesty, honour... All of these things have lost meaning in so many contexts of ruling body politik, that the People don't give a fuck, anymore... They see it, and they let it continue, because it "Doesn't Affect Them." Fuckers, All.
Auf der Maur - [Beast of Honor]--- It can, does, and will affect Everyone, in ways that most won't come to understand, until it's far too late. They'll see it, and they will have lost the meat and substance of everything about which they care, and they will rise (maybe), and there will be more blood, and there will be more pain, slow and steady. So why not do it all at once? Why not take it all, right now, and throw everyone and everything under the rule of an Iron Fist Fascist Government, crushing all opposition, and removing all freedom? Maybe they'll see it, sooner, you know? Hell, do this, and then, while they're subjugated, thusly, why don't you simply teach them what it truly means to be free. Slowly. Bit by bit, you re-edjucate the populace to value their fucking "Values," and make them understand what they have to gain, and understand. (AiBoFoRcEn - [The Dying Rose]). Present all of this, re-ed., break down, slowly, become immortal, so that you can be around for this long and tedious process, and make sure that you're surrounded by people who understand what you're trying to do. Then you leave.
When the populace understands what True Freedom and Equality are, and what it means to live in a Societal Matrix, where Rights and Responsibility are things that actually go hand in hand, following this Cause and Effect Model we've laid down, for ourselves, rather than being spurriously linked: "Well we did something for you, now you gotta do something for us. What? No, not the same kind of thing," then you Leave Them To It. You've done all you can, and if they truly understand, then you Understand that they do, and you let them govern themselves.
Björk - [It's Oh So Quiet]--- Because, as i've said, people only seem to understand the extremes... Juxatoposition of the Gorgeous, against the Horrible, and, hopefully, realising that they are both necessary, and working, of themselves, for that dynamic mixing balance.
I believe we already talked about my Idealism. Let's talk about my realism.
People fucking suck. They're lazy, and they procrastinate, and, when given the choice between doing nothing, and not thinking, and not working, and being subjugated into a meaningless Thought-Slavery, and Actually Working, to Better Their Lives, and give themselves and their works Meaning, the majority choose to do nothing. (Praxis - [Interface-Stimulation Loop]). More to the point they whine "I don't wanna have t' chooose..." which is the choice, right there. Because working is hard. Thinking is hard. Doing things is Hard. That's the fucking point. Work, live, do, experience Things. Then realise how little the things Matter, compared to what you do with them, and the meanings you Convey with them. That's what we're fucking here for, in the end.
Or is that too difficult for you?
In my opinion, and through my observation, there is... only one way, for the people of this planet to live in peace-- real peace, not peace-because-war-will-destroy-us-all-- and that is through heavy and displayed extremes. Only when people realise that their lives are falling to shit, and that they are dying, every day, for things that could be... settled other ways, do they Stop, and try to fix shit. (Franz Ferdinand - [Take Me Out]). And if that's what it takes, to get people to see it... well, that's fucking sad, but we can work with in that. We'll just do it a lot faster than the usual. Right now we're on a slow build of corruption, apathy, and degredation, within various governmental systems, around the world. People are claiming to hold and protect their ideals, when they are holding and wiping their asses with them, instead. Freedom, peace, justice, equality, honesty, honour... All of these things have lost meaning in so many contexts of ruling body politik, that the People don't give a fuck, anymore... They see it, and they let it continue, because it "Doesn't Affect Them." Fuckers, All.
Auf der Maur - [Beast of Honor]--- It can, does, and will affect Everyone, in ways that most won't come to understand, until it's far too late. They'll see it, and they will have lost the meat and substance of everything about which they care, and they will rise (maybe), and there will be more blood, and there will be more pain, slow and steady. So why not do it all at once? Why not take it all, right now, and throw everyone and everything under the rule of an Iron Fist Fascist Government, crushing all opposition, and removing all freedom? Maybe they'll see it, sooner, you know? Hell, do this, and then, while they're subjugated, thusly, why don't you simply teach them what it truly means to be free. Slowly. Bit by bit, you re-edjucate the populace to value their fucking "Values," and make them understand what they have to gain, and understand. (AiBoFoRcEn - [The Dying Rose]). Present all of this, re-ed., break down, slowly, become immortal, so that you can be around for this long and tedious process, and make sure that you're surrounded by people who understand what you're trying to do. Then you leave.
When the populace understands what True Freedom and Equality are, and what it means to live in a Societal Matrix, where Rights and Responsibility are things that actually go hand in hand, following this Cause and Effect Model we've laid down, for ourselves, rather than being spurriously linked: "Well we did something for you, now you gotta do something for us. What? No, not the same kind of thing," then you Leave Them To It. You've done all you can, and if they truly understand, then you Understand that they do, and you let them govern themselves.
Björk - [It's Oh So Quiet]--- Because, as i've said, people only seem to understand the extremes... Juxatoposition of the Gorgeous, against the Horrible, and, hopefully, realising that they are both necessary, and working, of themselves, for that dynamic mixing balance.
I believe we already talked about my Idealism. Let's talk about my realism.
People fucking suck. They're lazy, and they procrastinate, and, when given the choice between doing nothing, and not thinking, and not working, and being subjugated into a meaningless Thought-Slavery, and Actually Working, to Better Their Lives, and give themselves and their works Meaning, the majority choose to do nothing. (Praxis - [Interface-Stimulation Loop]). More to the point they whine "I don't wanna have t' chooose..." which is the choice, right there. Because working is hard. Thinking is hard. Doing things is Hard. That's the fucking point. Work, live, do, experience Things. Then realise how little the things Matter, compared to what you do with them, and the meanings you Convey with them. That's what we're fucking here for, in the end.
Or is that too difficult for you?
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no subject
Date: 2004-05-22 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Yes, it's difficult to make things better, but you have to Try.
the need for change
Date: 2004-05-22 05:46 pm (UTC)However, your passion is what is your attraction. With the proper refining and marketing, your charisma and leadership qualities will be enhanced and you will be able to realize the power to desire. But do not be suprised if it starts weaking at the seams.
Feel free to comment and critique my insights. I welcome a conversation pertainting to world domination.
Re: the need for change
Secondly, anyone who thinks that an effective world, or even national governmental system can be run without emotion, hasnb't been paying attention.
C) I'm not talking about holding this together for a "Long Period of Time". Hell, even in the even of an overthrow, if the re-edjucation process does Half of it's job, there will be an exponential increase in standard of living.
My goals are not the goals of tyrants. Quite the opposite, actually. Tyrants speak of love and kindness, being the reason why they must ALWAYS keep you under control. Here, whoever is in charge would have to be willing to abdicate once a certain level of understanding was reached, allowing for total self-sufficience of the populace, in a blending of True Democracy, and Anarchism.
Moving back into point the first, you don't know my background, and you have no idea that kind of training i've had, in my lifetime. I do not want power, and i do not want to rule the world, as an end, in itself, and anyone who does, is a fool.
So you rule the world. And? What next? In a dynamicly balanced society that Understands itself, and it's Negation, a society of individuals, each accepting and acknowledging their own Infinity, you have constant change, growth, learning, and understanding. Therefoe, even when there are "Evil" acts, they will be understood as necessary, as will their reactions.
We've made a cause and effect universe, for ourselves, so let's understand and use it.
Re: the need for change
Date: 2004-05-22 06:41 pm (UTC)I say emotion, because that is what you are running on. You are running on things that have already been known and published, yet reiterate them with new fire and energy. Your plans are not established in the "real" world, but the world we think about when we write our ideas.
I mean, your plan is an overview of a granduer scheme, a scheme I am assuming that you are keeping secret because of copyright infringment, or because it is not developed fully yet. What you have offered is an outline of a "been there, done that" plan that has been tried and failed due to various reasons. Your "training" as you put it is a dim referrant to a shadow of an earlier time that you have chosen not to reveal. I do not wish to contest the validity of this training, I only ask that you think carefully of this "training" and how it contends with your plans.
So exactly, what do you want? If you do not want the world, then what do you strive for?
Re: the need for change
I already said that this is not my "Plan". Merely what i would hope could be accomplished. And besides even THAT, you're missing the entire point.
This is not about One thing Vs. Another. It is about everything, so, no, i'm afraid i won't be able to bring my ideas down to a "Concrete" level, for you. The Infinite is the real, and, ultimately, that is where our concerns lie.
Again, you aren't paying attention. I already stated what i want, several times.
You are making assumptions about my abilities, character, and life goals. I state again: You do not know me. Do not assume that you do.
Until you can instigate something other than animosity, i.e. address something, not yours, with actual respect, i would ask that you don't comment here, any further.
In case you think my request unfair, or, perhaps, childish, i ask you to please look back over the way in which you've addressed me, here. You've made assumptions about me, without knowing anything about me, other than what you've read, here; you've belittled my entire belief system, and maybe you didn't realise it, but you did. Finally, you came in here with what has been, to me, and many others, utter disrespect.
Please try to see this objectively. Thank you, and goodbye.
It has become apparent to me...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:09 pm (UTC)Also, if you start off by telling someone that they aren't being practical or "real-world" sensible, don't follow it up by telling them that you aren't contesting their validity.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-22 07:09 pm (UTC)I asked you to tell me what you are doing, and you cannot even do that. I asked you not to talk in infinites, and you say that I cannot even understand. Perhaps you are the one that is assuming things, my comrade. Perhaps you do not have anything to say, expect play on people's ignorance.
Unless you can say what you mean, you will never convinence anyone that you the Way.
Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:11 pm (UTC)Did you not read the first sentence of this post?
Re: Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:13 pm (UTC)Re: Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:14 pm (UTC)but I am just trying to ask some questions and sharpen the focus. This seems like angst, not reason
Re: Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:22 pm (UTC)It's obvious to me that the two of you aren't on the same wavelength, as I've seen him try to explain things like this to people who give him the same initial reaction that you have. It really doesn't have anything to do with fascism, or ruling the world. It's simply a want to push for worldwide cooperation.
Re: Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:31 pm (UTC)Re: Oh, please...
If i wanted your advice, Ever, i would have asked for it. If i wanted advice on My Thoughts, then i'd have mentioned it, in the post. As was said, it appears as if you haven't read my journal, ever, before now.
If you had, you would know, already, that i do not opperate in Pure Logic, nor Pure Emotion, i strive for-- and i've said this How many times Now?-- Dynamic Balance Between The Two.
If you cannot understand and accept what that means, in terms of working within, understanding, and accepting a Concrete Concept of Infinity, then we will continue to sit here talking past each other.
Don't get me wrong, I see your point. The problem is, your point has very little at all to do with what i'm saying, here.
Re: Oh, please...
Date: 2004-05-22 07:34 pm (UTC)Forgive me, sir. I have make the horrible assumption that you were in a place that you could see what I wanted you to see. Forgive me, because I have intruded on a threshold that cannot hold the reality of the matter, yet rely on the intricate strings that hold these worlds together.
I am very very sorry. :(
Re: Oh, please...
Look, i'm sorry if i came across as Gunning for you, but the problem rests in that you don't seem to be looking at what i'm actually Saying.
As i've already Said, i see what you are trying to get across, and understand the validity Of it, i simply don't see what it has to do with Anything i've said here, nor why you have to espouse it in such a manner.
I'm going to, again, ask that... we-- all of us-- take a break, here, and try to calm the hell down.
no subject
'Your argument is ruled by emotion, and is fueled by the hatred of the igorance of mankind'
'Your solutions are the regeratation of tyrants and your goals are the same goals that really in the end have no meaning after you are dead'
'I say emotion, because that is what you are running on.'
Examples of Disrespectful Remarks:
'Well, if you stop talking in infinites and start talking in terms that are practical and demonstrate you have some sense other than that of a dream, them your message would be receieved better by people that are willing to invest into your goals and motivations.'
'Your "training" as you put it is a dim referrant to a shadow of an earlier time that you have chosen not to reveal.'
Both of those disrespecftful remarks were followed by equivocation to try to make them seem Less disrespectful. They only severed to Heighten the disrespect, with dishonesty.
coment
Date: 2004-05-22 07:30 pm (UTC)I see it as the truth. If you want me to be plain rude, then I can be plain rude. I am NOT trying tp disrepect you. I just want you look at what you are saying and see something you do want to see.
God that sounds arrogant... I am so sorry.
Let me rephrase that. Your plan, is ideal, which is obvious because you are an idealist. Your generalities do not carry any weight, because they are the same thing said over and over again by many different people. Unless you are planning to preach to people that don't know any better, once out to sea, this will sink fast.
That sounds arrogant too.... I am very very sorry. I am new at this.
Re: coment
I'll tell you right now, i have No problem with arrogance, as long as it's tempered with a healthy consideration for the person to whom you're addressing. Example: I am God, but so are You, so there is Respect, and equality to consider. It is a delicate thing, but the outcomes are awesome.
My generalities are exactly that. There are intricacies of planning and phase, most of which can only be planned for, and prepared against, hence knowledge of probability, and as wide a grasp of infinity as possible. Not the least important of that grasp being knowing that the individual, of itself, is Infinite.
There is weight in Everything, in my system of belief, because everything is equally as infinite as everything else, and everything is important. The goal, here, as in everything is to spread enough Understanding of that, that people know what i mean by that, even if they don't agree.
Yeah, you started this, today. A good strategy for any new territory: respect your surroundings, and always keep an open mind. You'll probably have a much more pleasant experience, that way.
Are you thinking of your words b4 you write them?
Date: 2004-05-22 07:46 pm (UTC)The main problem I see with your comments is that you are not listening to an argument and responding, but simply trying to have your own thoughts heard w/o any concern for your fellow debater or for the deabte itself. Wolven made a pretty straitforward and coherent presentation about the results he is looking for after the execution and success of an undisclosed plan. Nowhere in that presentation did he make any outrageous claims or attempt to to sway anyone. He was simply adding a new layer of clarifacation, in a general sense, to an opus he is constantly writing and speaking about.
I have heard and read many aspects of his goal and I usually can't undertand or do not agree. This is one of the few times where I was not confused and actually appreciated what he wants. You somehow totally ignored every word he typed and tried to attack Wolven with accusations that did not fit his post.
He already pointed out your assumptions. I hope you realize your folly and either choose to stop commenting, as he asked, or attempt to learn something w/o trying to belittle and teach at the same time. In other words, keep your arrogance and inepptitude to yourself or try to alleviate them by listening to someone other than yourself.
This entire affair is neither right nor fair.
Date: 2004-05-22 07:57 pm (UTC)He responded to a public post in a public forum. Perhaps he put his foot in his mouth a little, but quite frankly I see no disrespect meant in his post. He comes off as overzealous and, yes, naive to the society that the 'net presents. He states more than once that he wants to refine Wolven's pov... I took it to mean that he's trying to understand it better. His mistake? Other than putting his foot in his mouth? I dunno here. Even though others say "this and this and this"
Wolven responded defensively from the getgo. Yes, he does have the right to feel offended that a perfect stranger would comment on his post out of the blue. I'm all for not having to lock one's post in order to keep a sense of privacy, however... Wolve, hon, your posts aren't always clear for me either. I just don't ask because the one time I did try to level with you, I got the same defensive bristle. So I have stopped asking. It's nothing against you, its just an example here of what I think is going on.
And what I think is going on is simply that one person reached out to another and a major miscommunication happened.
So.. ignore me if you want. Or gang up on me now. I don't care... just... ya know... give the poor guy a break. He's trying, and (from the best I've been able to gather) where he comes from direct questions are rude.
Re: This entire affair is neither right nor fair.
Date: 2004-05-22 08:06 pm (UTC)That's the main problem: Alex was arguing with the wrong information. He was making assumptions that had no basis on anything Wolven wrote.
But I think it;'s been taken care off, after reading the latest comments, so I hope all is well now.
Re: This entire affair is neither right nor fair.
It's quite obvious that there's been some serious miscommunication, here. People talking past each other, and reacting, more than thinking things out.
Incompatabilities of initial starting points, and the like.
No one is trying to gang up on anyone, and i know that it probably feels as if people ARE If anyone feels as if they are being unjustly set upon, then i apologise.
I'm sorry that the culural schism exists, but i respond Best to direct questions. Honesty and straightfoward questions... well, they're what i best understand, without having to decypher. And even then, in this medium of the internet, there are layers of meaning that i could be missing...
Very difficult.
Re: This entire affair is neither right nor fair.
Date: 2004-05-22 08:32 pm (UTC)Re: This entire affair is neither right nor fair.
Yeah.
...
Date: 2004-05-22 08:01 pm (UTC)Re: ...
Emotions, as i already said, are not something i find need to be shunned, so much as tempered with rationality. The reverse is also true.
...
Date: 2004-05-22 08:19 pm (UTC)*cuddles her evil*
Re: ...
...
Date: 2004-05-22 08:31 pm (UTC)Re: ...
On a completely different note
Date: 2004-05-22 08:11 pm (UTC)I am not a supporter of the "Abolute power corrupts absolutely" slogan, but it does hold some merit. You lay out some very heavy duty revolutions w/i society, and on a global, not national level. If your plan takes hold, gets in place, and is executed, how can you be sure that you will not fall victim to your own power and abilities during or after the teachings?
And I say you are sure b/c you have told me more than once that you will simply leave "office" once you believe the population has acheived understanding.
Re: On a completely different note
The thing of it is, i've held power, before, bits though it may have been. School offices, board positions... Things like that. I don't like being the only person in charge. I like to distribute power as equally as possible, in situations like that, and have done so, in the past. The problem was, they weren't ready for it, then, meaning they had No clue what they could do with it, or how to sustain that equality and self-governance.
That's what the re-ed. aims to correct.
Re: On a completely different note
Date: 2004-05-22 08:29 pm (UTC)Re: On a completely different note
Re: On a completely different note
Date: 2004-05-22 09:10 pm (UTC)Re: On a completely different note
no subject
Date: 2004-05-22 08:58 pm (UTC)Heh, where you want to change Everything, I just want to take the kickass people, the ones who See, tear a hole in reality and find another place to start things again. I'm not made for ruling, even the kind that'll end up Teaching so's people can rule themselves.
Remember King Rat, and the Democracy of Rats, love.
no subject
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 10:43 pm (UTC)no subject