Meta-Systems.

[wolven7]

Thinking about meta-systems theory, and a beneficial use for doublethink: To fully immerse yourself in all points of view, long enough to understand them and then move outward to a meta-level of thought, integrating them into a more full and cohesive view of the universe.

In this idea-scheme, so-called contradictions between systems are meaningless, as the über-systems contain and account for the infinite combinations of infinties, allowing for... anything.

Several questions arise:

1) How do/can we know that we exist in this kind of [infinite]X[infinite] reality matrix?

2) In such a matrix, isn't the negation of the continuation of the Matrix necessarily exisitent?

3) How do we function, in such a reality?

If we can adequately answer these questions, we can come to an understanding of Truth and Fact to be constantly in flux, as the universe And Its Components grow, change, and become more, then we can more easily apprehend the argument that Infinity Is Paradox; that limitation seeking to break itself is the nature of learning and understanding.

Another problem is of reconciling this with any kind of fanaticism.

What tells you that God loves only you? That "delusional" mindsets may not be beneficial for learning, growth, and moving forward? Why must the infidels be destroyed, rather than taught, shown your Better way, and then Ignored?

Try something like, "You're engaging in a practice I'd rather not be a part of. I consider it unhelpful for species advancement. If you cannot or will not stop, you or I should Go."

Or some fucking thing. Seriously. Why will it not work? More importantly, how could it work Better?

More tomorrow.

Comments

[wolven.livejournal.com]

In 2), I mean that if a matrix of completely infinite infinities is the true nature of reality, isn't it necessarily the case that there is, inherent in that matrix, the negation of the matrix itself, and the Fact/Truth that the matrix Does Not Exist?

In 3): With that level of infinitude, choice, and intersection of possibility, how do we go about making responsible decisions?

I don't like to think that we won't give a shit, any more. It seems that there would still be much to do and understand, and differences of opinion as to how to go about doing so. I think that we can disagree, in a civil manner, while still working toward better outcomes.

[necrophonic.livejournal.com]

"In 2), I mean that if a matrix of completely infinite infinities is the true nature of reality, isn't it necessarily the case that there is, inherent in that matrix, the negation of the matrix itself, and the Fact/Truth that the matrix Does Not Exist?"

Ok that makes more sense to me, and I can definitely see I was missing some crucial points to the whole post. So, I guess I'll have to rework the last bit I said, because it's not quite as applicable to this specific line of reasoning.

Addressing 2) Yeah if all variables can exist in contradictory states to themselves or each other all the time, there's the possibility that it negates its own existence, but not necessarily so. I mean, in some ways there's already the ABILITY for the universe to do this on the physical level, but largely, in most scopes, it doesn't. I've always wondered if that itself isn't a state of flux, that at some point the universe expands so large, that certain laws like gravity no longer reach the other things in the universe, or the expansion no longer happens, and at some point it all just dissipates into a fog that folds back into itself for another round.

But that's for the astrophysicists to figure out.

3) The same way we do now. The entire concept of responsible decisions and ethical choice is based on the fact that we feel pain and pleasure, and desire to live and defend our life. No matter how many infinite possibilities for the universe to collapse on itself or any sort of metaphysical version of that concept, we're just trying to sort through the variables to survive, and the more morally conscious of us are trying to do it in a way that doesn't harm others and works towards a "greater good", and that itself is widely debatable. Eugenics and Euthanasia are perfect examples of something where "greater good" is hotly debated, and there's fantastic, solid arguments on both sides, with no way to reconcile them because of the obvious pitfalls of either side; Either we let everyone breed however they want, overpopulating the planet with potentially genetically worthless people (products of extreme inbreeding, for instance) or we let some asshole decide to kill all the Norwegian because they think Black Metal is the tool of the devil.

If you were to have some sort of infinite variable matrix of reality where all things had the sort of infinite potential to allow these sort of meta-system contradictions on each other at random, or all the time, or what have you, our methods would essentially be the same, just modified to a system with increased variability, but with the same ultimate goals.

I think it would just make it that much harder because of increased variables. It's pretty much impossible now, because of the variability already in the system. I mean, the lumber industry is a perfect example of something where if you get rid of it, thousands of people are jobless and starve in South America with no way to grow food or support themselves, and with it, we have no fucking rainforest left in a few years.

And from there the variables and interactions become so complex that every action we take is not even remotely able to be put into a singular category of right or wrong, only a long list of small consequences and reactions which each have their own tinier web of interactions, with ever tinier labels of "productive" or "destructive".

And when I said "we won't give a shit" I was referring to what it would take for us to have a "utopian" sort of society, where there were no jealousy or harm or anything else like that, which would ultimately require the negation of various human emotions, which would ultimately lead to the negation of things integral to our will to survive, leaving us "not giving a shit" but that isn't really relevant to the overall point of your post, so disregard I guess.