Leadin edges, parallel lines

[wolven7]

Tori Amos - [General Joy]--- I don't do certain things, at parties, anymore. I don't declare "Shirtless O'Clock" (an idea which I blatantly stole from Mac Hall), I don't tell the stories of parties past, I don't force people to drink Cthulade.

I don't care about getting older, in the same way that many people do. When I became a man, I didn't put away childish things, so much as I found and explored the "adult" expressions of those same urges. (Tool - [Vicarious]). I've long lamented the fact that things I find fun, now, I still find fun. But... Not if other people aren't sharing in them, with me... I have become old, and stuffy, by proxy.

I am not comfortable with new people, and the people with whom I Am Comfortable are no longer comfortable in those situations, with me. And so, I find myself asking, "What Next?" Where do we go when the edges and boundaries I want to explore aren't exhausted, yet, for me, but for you, they're old hat, or simply uncomfortable?

I want to test the liminality, again, as I find great joy in the finding, in the exploration and the testing, and I don't necessarily have a preset comfort level. But your comfort level is not mine, and I find that decorum necessitates I demure to the desires of the supposedly or potentially injured party. (Screamin' Jay Hawkins - [Orange Colored Sky]). Why? Because I don't have a preference that won't cause them mental or emotional harm. And having you around in awkward half-expressed needs-to-know, is better than not having you around at all, isn't it?

Thiss is my problem: I want to know varying intimate details, uncomfortable things, tricky twisty places deep in and under, near a rib, perhaps, because it pushes. (cEvin Key - [Klora]). I like to tempt, to corrupt, to get you to open up to me, because it means that the n-dimensional conceptual organism that is YouAndMe grows, matures, evolves, Adapts... Changes. But I don't know what you want. Or, rather, I don't know how to get you to say what you want, and when I test, tease, probe the borders, it may make you uncomfortable... and you shy away. Opposite octave reaction, as Scott Weiland would say.

The Little Willies - [Love Me]--- Don't be so vain. This song isn't necessarily about you. This is the truth of my interactions with nearly everyone I know, and it is the crux and sticking POINT for any collaboration I have ever attempted. I Want Something Different From You. And I don't know how comfortable you are with giving it to me.

I want your friendship, your openness, your honesty (which is different from your Truth), but I want your Truth, Too. I want to know the inmost corners of you, and I want to watch as you discover the exterior faces you show the world. I want these things in varying shades, in different colours, in constantly shifting masses and combinations of quantities, depending on who you are, my mood, and my current Work Stages.

The Distillers - [Red Carpet and Rebellion]--- I don't lead well. I am a reluctant leader, at best, with the constant urge to look over my shoulder and make sure people are following, rife with the fearful knowledge that they are falling off in ones and twos. And yet people often want me to start things, show the way.

I follow worse than I lead, as I am constantly of the mind that what I have to say and what I know about the given situation is an important and valuable perspective. And yet the majority of people want me to get in line behind their ideas, and follow letter for letter.

IAMX - [Bring Me Back a Dog]--- I want to walk next to you. I want to stand and face you. I want you to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back with me, and tell me what you see, what you think, and what you feel.

I want to work Together.

Another rambling, 2am message to you, Rudie.

Comments

[mendori.livejournal.com]

How I wish for a day when the walls of "normal" and "acceptable" would fall, just for a while, and those uncomfortable, deep places could be lain open like dissected rats on the table.

Look, here, it lives, it breaths, it beats, it pulses, it twitches. Now put your hands on it, and squeeze.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Exactly that.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

when you can figure out how to make people not use such nakedness as ammunition to hurt crush and destroy, then everyone WOULD let it fall.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

why are you so driven to do what amounts to spiritual violation of others?

This constant talk of opening up others' and expanding others' boundaries because it makes YOU happy is disturbing. Nice that you have decorum but slightly alarming that you feel the need to shove it aside and make judgements about others' comfort levels. So what if "I" did open up and lay bare all the tricky twisted places inside? What then? You get to satify some voyeauristic need to feel like a chosen one while I walk around with the uneasy knowledge that someone else now has a piece of a dagger that can pierce my heart at any time? That's supposed to make our relationship "better" or "stronger"? What if I don't agree? What if its not reciprocal? I give you vulnerable parts of myself while you stand and scrutinize it all and say "well I feel better now!" that's not going to do it for me.

You want raw bare naked spirit?

Give it up first.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

If I trust someone, I open up completely to anyone who asks.

If I tell you something about my childhood, or my interactions with my grandmother, or what dreams really and truly mean, to me, that's trust. That's what I have to offer: Me, open for the asking.

It's not a violation, and I've not shoved aside anyone's anything :)

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

you will only get from others that which they know they can defend against should it ever be turned against them. To demand more than that is to demand trust that most people don't even have for themselves.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

demand trust that most people don't even have for themselves.

Which is precisely the point.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

as said before, you can't expect people to give to you that which they know can be used against them. That kind of trust is a gift you have to earn. When you've earned it,you'll get it. Begging and whining won't get you there any faster.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

You're missing the point, entirely. It's about wanting people to trust themselves enough to trust each other enough to know who they can trust, and to then trust those people, completely.

Small steps don't get you there.

I neither demanded, nor whined. I stated a want, a preference, and the reasons I am okay with not forcing an issue. Embedded in the entire thing is the recognition that what I want is different from what you want, that that fact does hurt me, on a level, but that that's okay, because I'd rather people find their way, here, on their own time, than I have to Force them there.

If you think that communication of that nature is "begging," "whining," or "demanding," then I really have no idea what else to say to you, about it.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

Damien, you know I love and respect you. But honestly, you post a variation of this "communication" about every other week. Its a vague yearning the first time I read it, a frank plea the next few times I read and eventually it just comes off as "dammit why don't you people OPEN UP TO ME! I know you have "issues" but I wish you didn't!!" and that becomes annoying.

Who are you to make judgements about other people's "issues" and choices about trust? YOU think it would be great for people to have the same kind of frankness you say you want but even though you recognize other's may feel differently, its obvious you find that a negative. How kind of you not to force the issue... you only mention it all the time. yes what you want is different from what other people want. Rather than continuing to bemoan that fact why not take your own advice and accept that guardedness is in fact part and parcel of who people are. Having those guards come down during the course of acquaintance is one of life's greatest pleasures and I for one would never want to push that, force it or even ASK people to do it faster than they want. Watching trust comem to fruition is beautiful and to me, it looks like you're whining becuase it doesn't always happen on YOUR schedule.

I would no more want someone's forced trust (whether the "force" be aggressive or passive in nature) than I would want their forced love. I don't go around saying "I wish you people would show me you love me more often" why do you do the spiritual equivalent?

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I've not made Any Judgments, here, but you keep saying I have. I've said what I Want, and I've asked how to meet people somewhere between what I want, and what they're comfortable giving.

I haven't said that what you want, or what you prefer, is either good or bad. Simply that it isn't what I want or prefer, and that that makes me a little sad, because we can't share that.

Yes, I am frustrated that there are Very few people who are on the schedule I'm on, in terms of approaching and giving trust in interactions with me, but that doesn't equate to whining. Pining, perhaps, but not whining :)

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

you say that like its a bad thing.

When you look back on your life and realize there were times that you handed someone what you thought was a beautiful gift, was really a sword to thrust into your back, you realize that there are some things inside yourself you cannot even trust yourself with. You learn to be more careful, discriminating and guarded. People act like being guarded is somehow intrinsicly bad. Like it would be so wonderful and nirvana-like for everyone to walk about with souls bared all the time.

Well some parts of my soul are MINE, and I don't want to share with everyone - why shoudl I? and some parts of my soul are delicate, not to be handed over to every dude and dudette that asks me a question then tosses the answer about as if it were a plaything. and some parts of my soul are tiny, fragile and scared and they need protection and care in order to grow, not a harsh light shined on them for the entertainment of others.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Then protect them, shield and guard them. That's fine.

But, at some point, growth will only happen in the open air, by testing limits and boundaries.

What I'm saying is, I wish that I knew more people whose growth schedules and processes hadn't diverged from my own, so radically.

And you are addressing my preferred state of things as if It were the necessarily bad thing.

I tried to present as even a balance of stating my desires and the recognition that they aren't everyone else's desires as I know how. But it seems like you're simply ignoring the places where I reconcile my wants with the facts of the world. Why?

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

because you state your preference as if it were the penultimate in connectedness. Which for some people in certain places and states it would NOT be. One does not yank a sprout out of the soil and expect a beautiful flower that same day. Yet you muse endlessly on how much you are missing in the interactions with others...

How often have you exulted on how much you have GAINED in interactions with others lately? I've seen you do it once in a while so I know you can... but this perpetual focus on what you are NOT getting is disturbing. Especially when it leans towards the judgemental end of opinion.

What you want isn't a bad thing, I never said that. I said you need to have more than recognition that others have different spiritual depths available, you need to ENJOY that those different depths that are available to you.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

and no,I disagree, growth (of my spirit) happens when *I* decide. Not you. Not anyone else. If I choose open air, trust and sharing, then that's my choice, but its not yours to make. and its certainly not for you to tell me what I should choose.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

i never said it was. I said what I Wished it was, and that I know it's not necessarily going to be that way.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

The burden is not on someone to make me not use their information against them, but on them to accept that I have no power over them except what they give me. I cannot hurt them with their words and emotions unless those things rule that person.

Just b/c I share something does not automatically mean it will hurt me. I have to be comfortable with all my secrets, all my wisdom, all my stupidity, and anything else that I define as 'me".

If I am not than I am posistioning myself to constantly become a victim, even of myself. There is a danger in sharing our souls, but that danger only really exists if we beelive other people, those outside of us, can actually control our lives and emotions. If someone were to spill the beans about my proclivities, secrets, or sins, than so what? Those are just words, in the end, and they don't truly define me. Unless of course I allow them to and I like to beleive that I am far more than a random grouping of words and punctuation.

I don't see myself as vulnerable simply b/c I reveal things or do not. That doesn't mean I tell anything in my heart apropos of nothing, but that I am not afraid of anyone abusing my soul or using it against me b/c it is in fact mine. I cannot be hurt by my own truths. No matter what someone were to pass along, ignore, misunderstand, misuse, or whatver. It was still my truth and my choice, so it cannot defeat me or bring me falling down unless I allow that to happen and I am in control of my life, not the others and not those secrets.

I can understand the fear you have with what Damien is proposing, but you seem so hostile about it and that seems strange to me.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

I don't have fear with what he is proposing. I'm not hostile to what he yearns for, I am gruff because that's how I am. But of course, you don't know me so you don't know that.

If I didn't care what other people thought/felt/responded to me, why would I care about anything?

I happen to think anyone who talks about the whole zen thing of "only *I* can control my feelings" is fooling themselves. We, as humans, are social creatures and we have need of validation, admiration, love, affection, approval - all of which we get from those around us. Those who continually give us the opposite are people we try to stay away from, with good reason. To be emotionally and spiritually robbed is a draining thing that one should not have to waste their time with. Better to be on the lookout beforehand.

YOU may be fine with the whole thing of "no one can hurt me unless I let them" but plenty of us aren't so conceited and recognize that we are fine with the fact that we want, need and crave other people's love affection approval and validation. I'm confident in my own self-esteem that I don't need to pretend otherwise.

Damien is in fact talknig abotu connecting with other people. But you can't push people to be close to you in the way that you want. He knows that quite well. You can lecture all day about "trust me, trust everyone because you are the master of your own feeligns" blah blah blah but the truth of the matter is that other people CAN hurt you when you hand them precious parts of yourself. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but everyone learns what is valuable to them and what they can risk comfortably.

YOU want to risk everything all the time. that's your business and that's fine. I really don't think its your place to judge others who choose differently.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

which is all a long-winded way of saying "if YOU are emotionally and spiritually invulnerable then good for you! I'm not, and neither are lots of other people"

and there's nothing wrong with recognizing that.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

Really? "gruff" is how you would describe yourself?

Seems you're the one here fooling themselves, sweetcheeks.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

ROTFL

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

no, overall I don't have a one-word description of myself or my demeanor, which changes accordingly. I picked that one out of the air for expediancy. Because I think focusing on my demeanor detracts from the actual discussion at hand, frankly. But if that's what you wanna ponder, be my guest.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

I don't do certain things, at parties, anymore. I don't declare "Shirtless O'Clock", I don't tell the stories of parties past, I don't force people to drink Cthulade.

Well, jesus fucking christ! It's not much of a party than is it?:)

The sentiments that you express are similar to what I have been feeling recently. It is always refreshing to see my thoughts from a different angle. Helps me better understand my conclusions and all that jazz. The bit about people no longer feeling comfortable with us is the main part. I often feel as if people are no longer willing to walk with me and that frightens me b/c I am at a lost as to how to keep them or to keep future friends. And really, I am tired of trying to.

As for the other resonances,

It is weird for me b/c I read you sometimes and think

"Just where is he talking to these people and who are they and why am I not invited?"

There's a disconnect b/t what I read you say you want and what you actually try to get. It's as if you have decided you are only going to get it from point a and never point b, or at least you will only look in point a. It's a bit annoying b/c I share some of your intrests and desires about humanity and society, but then I feel as if we never talk about that.

Another thing is that I rarely get any sense that you care about people emotionally or that you trully, in an internal and soulful way, want us. It's only an academic desire and that your only goal is to further scholarship, not to weave and strenghten empathetic bonds. It's off putting and I never see a way around it. Perhaps b/c I am blinded by insecurity or there is another blind bias inside me I have yet to identify.

Beyond me vs you, though, there is the feeling of why do you really want all this Truth and Honesty? What is your endgame? That answer always seems clouded over, and whether by your design or our suspicion, it's a big red flag.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

As I said to mech_angel, in the car, my trust is telling you the truth. My caring is listening to yours, accepting what trust is to you, and trying, very hard, to understand what that means to you.

You're right, we don't talk about that. What would you say the alternatives to my methods are?

My "endgame" is more communication and better understanding. My "endgame" is... not really an end, so much as a mindful, aware continuation.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

If I understand the question correctly, it is not that I feel your methods are in need of improvement, but that they seem very strict and one-sided. You say you desire a continuation of the communication with your selected friends, but I am unable to see where the info is flowing from you.

I mean, yes, you share much here, and are very open and honest, but again, it all seems overly calculating. Not that that is "wrong", but that many people might take offense and feel as if sharing more with you just b/c you ask is not really worth it. That may be more of me simply being behind the curve, but I can't rightfully say.

Maybe another way to say is that you have the ability to synthesize information at a greater speed and into a higher quality vat of knowledge than most. So, if we are pouring so much of oursleves into your revsoirs, it feels as if we are simply your worker drones. What do we get out of helping YOU besides satisfaction that you are now aware of more?

[wolven.livejournal.com]

It's... the only way I know how, at present. I share anything I'm asked.

I try to give what I can to whom I can, when I'm asked, but... If I give it all to everyone, unasked, is that really sharing? Is it really trust? Or is it just... Stuff, because Everyone has it, now?

I feel that both are true, and right, but that's not how everyone feels about it. Obviously. So, until I am asked to offer something along a specific line, I can only ever be as open as I always am.

It IS calculated. Designed to allow everyone who knows something about me to feel special, for having that knowledge. Because they ARE special.

But special does not mean alone, and unique exists in the combination of our meanings, not in the Information I share, or the Data of the Facts.

To quote Placebo's "Post Blue": It's Between you and Me.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I guess that makes sense. I just read this and have some troublsome things on my mind, so I may be able to offer an actual response later.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Take your time.

[momentai.livejournal.com]

No, i don't think it is just "stuff" if that is meant to be derogatory. Sharing it with anyone who happens across it is not a poor option and I do not fel it devalues any level of the trust. I simply feel it is a means to an nd and that when certain someones stumble across it, they will engage you and then the "special" combunations of menaning and what not will begin to coalesce.

I guess that is sort of what I do. And then for you, if people see all of what you do share, but are scared of, I can't really say "it was not meant to be", but then again, I can't ay that there would be anything you could alter.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

And that's what makes the process a difficult one.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

and my specific, personal, answer to you is this:

I slap myself up on my LJ all the time. I post things about myself, my inner self, as well as my observations, thoughts and especially my rants.

You rarely have comment. I doubt you have time to read anything I post.

If you don't have time or interest enough to interact on the first sublevel of "here I am! this is ME!" why in the world should I delve deeper for YOU?

Its like a "rule" I read written by children: if you won't pay attention to the "unimportant stuff" I say, why should I tell you the important stuff?

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

and I say all this not as an actual but by way of example. Because you choose to be nebulous about what you want (guarded?) but quite specific about how feel about not getting what you want, I comment with specifics of what I'm trying to say overall: you want connection of a deeper more meaningful kind by your definition then you have to start small. yes, you do.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

The problem being that I have this sense of deep urgency, in all things Trust and Sharing. I seek to get everyone on full equal ground, as quickly as possible, so that we can see, in our interactions, that we see each other as completely as we are able, for the time.

While that may take small steps, it takes many of them, very quickly.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

your sense of urgency reads as pressure.

your idea of "equal ground" cannot be so; "equal" means everyone is the same but people's truths and inner selves are NOT the same, cannot be the same, SHOULD NOT be the same. Your "equal" might easily be someone elses "disparate" and yet you ignore that very real truth by using that imagery over and over.

You want the goal yet continually refuse to acknowledge the importance of the journey, which for many is more important.

I'll tell you one truth I think you need to know now; I don't feel like you've ever been as truthful and raw with me as I have been with you. That's an "inequality" I have no problem with. What I have problem with is when you affect a demeanor as if the inequality is somehow hurting you when from my POV you are creating it. Create your own vision of equality by equalizing YOUR side. If you stop worrying about how my side looks (from your yard) then perhaps you might be surprised to find it isn't as lopsided as you think. If it still seems "wrong" then bring that to the middle and we'll parse it and ponder it together. Create your own equality and look at my side as I do, not as you want me to.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

There's the exact problem of communication I'm talking about: What I see as raw openness, and what I give, from that perspective is Not What You See, Nor What You Give.

I am okay with this fact, but I don't know how to give you what you want unless you ASK for it. I can only give you what I know how to give in an approximation of the form in which I see You giving it.

Empathic, yes. Mind reader, no.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

It's true that I haven't commented pretty much anywhere, in a long time.

Sorry about that.

Idea

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

hold a moot!

You could rename it an "Openness party", or anything else. Point being a space where everyone invited is aware that their boundaries might be pressed by shirtless o'clock, questions about their political stances, accusations of treachery, and whatnot; as long as there's an escape valve where anyone can say "back off" and you have a "breathing room".

You'd have to do a lot of energy work both before and after to get the required safe space, and more interesting with some of the things you mention if you use one of the "crossed world days"... Samhain, Diwalli, al'Hallow'e'en, etc.

There are a number of people I could tell truths right now. But it will have to wait for the right place and time. I really like this idea, and I think... pardon the overuse, but if you build it, they will come.

... not to be confused with the tagline from "Field of Creams", if you suck it, they will come. Yes, I just made that up, I don't think it's a real movie, terrible indeed. (bashful grin)

Re: Idea

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I like this idea, a lot.

And now that you've said it, it exists.