wolven7: (The Very Devil)
[personal profile] wolven7
Earlier I asked a question about the nature of urges not satisfied, and I asked you your thoughts on the never-sated burning need for someone else.

Everyone talks about the romantic nature of unrequited love, the pining and the longing, of a connection recognised, but never realised, but, sometimes, I think that's bullshit. I think that the reality of the situation is something a bit baser, a bit more true, maybe a bit darker, if you want to see it that way.

We want.

I have wanted things and people, all my life, and I've only gotten the smallest fraction of those things or people which or whom I've wanted. This is true for most of you, as well. That I want is not in question, nor that I'll lose a majority of my wantings, and that the very wanting of those things will fade. My point is that, somewhere in the people I've wanted, whom I've desired, some of those wantings have retained potency.

Now, when I say Lust, what I mean is the physical urge, the scent and smell and taste pull to a person, without the emotional connection, or intimate knowledge and admiration that marks, brings about, or is brought about by Love. Lust is... close, at a distance. Lust is heat and fire, to sear and crisp, and Lust, when nurtured, can even, by strange turns, become Love. But they are not the same.

The virture of Lust is that it breaks you, and it rips you to pieces, and it consumes you, giving you a way by which to define yourself, to feel the deeper, "dirtier" parts of the underside of you. When you lust for something, the heat of it can blind you to so much else, and this can be a salve, and it can be a detriment.

But if you never have the ability to consumate that lust, to transmute and realise the nature of it, you idealise it. Much like unrequited love, lust left unfinished can eat away at you from the inside, can make all other seemings suspect, as you do not know if you are projecting the image and want of that which you never had onto that which you Now Do.

None of which is to say that all unrequited love is actually lust. Rather, that we often forget that we don't know what we don't know. If I make no further in-roads to meet you, to know your self, past my idea of you* then my lust is simply lust, and any love I have is of my self and my own imagination.

Anyway. Lust. Unrequited. If i have known anything it's that sometimes I hold on to physical attractions, in my head, regardless of my emotional connection to a person. If I've ever had a sexual thought about you, chances are I still hold, somewhere in my mind, a thought toward you, in that degree. It's not that I [necessarily] think that we would have made a good couple, or should ever have been in a relationship. Not even a little bit [(though that's probably true, too)].

It just means that, at some point in time, I've wanted to fuck you.

*A debate on knowledge and identity to be had later; for now let it suffice that I may know more of you, that I may refine my idea of you, if I speak with you, interact with you, listen to and hear you, rather than making a story in my head, with no input from you.

Date: 2008-07-13 04:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] salrushdy.livejournal.com
"It's not that I think that we would have made a good couple, or should ever have been in a relationship." most males I know sign that, it's different with females, this is a tragedy of the life man

Date: 2008-07-13 05:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nausved.livejournal.com
From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense. Genetic studies have revealed that only a portion of the male human population passes on its genes each generation, while virtually all of the female population is reproductively successful each generation (though with the advent of birth control, this may no longer be the case).

This means that women exert strong sexual selection pressure on men—they are very picky about whom they will sleep with, and will save it for those who are the better catch (that is, those they feel a real attachment to). Men exert hardly any sexual selection pressures on women—they lose out by having a limited sexual desire.

The interesting thing about this, IMO, is that faithfulness is one of the sexual pressures that women place on men; the more women a man has, the less inclined other women are to rear children with him (since he will presumably have to divide his resources amongst all his children, plus there is the very pressing danger of disease). I suspect this is why you get men who are very picky about love (love being, essentially, a willingness to extend large bulks of his resources and refrain from acting out on his desires for other women) and not so much about sex (for those times that he is not in love and thus not expected to maintain faithfulness).

Date: 2008-07-13 05:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
http://dresdendolls.com/downloads_n_lyrics/lyrics/shoresofcalifornia.htm

That about sums that up.

Date: 2008-07-13 01:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] salrushdy.livejournal.com
exactly! like "one life to live and mace and GHB"
just state of affairs, resistance is wasteful

Date: 2008-07-13 07:24 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-07-13 05:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
See link below. ;)

Date: 2008-07-13 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] unknownbinaries.livejournal.com
Earlier I asked a question about the nature of urges not satisfied, and I asked you your thoughts on the never-sated burning need for someone else.

I forgot about this. My thoughts? It was part of the whole array of things that convinced me that I was not attractive. For a long time I was afraid of the whole act, or even parts of it, partly or mostly because I was being pushed by peers, by those I was interested in that returned it. By the time I found someone(s) I was willing to let it out on, they weren't interested in me. At all. And I was as stubborn and Willful in those interests as I am about anything I want/need/Will to happen, now, only not as able to deal with them. So I was pegged not only as a prude, but also as crazy-obsessive, only I didn't see that part. I just saw a lack of tits and my braces and mousy hair.

So I look at unrequited lust as a source of vague embarrassment or shame, and a combination of self-loathing (that's why they didn't want me..) and pride (man, they fucking missed out, cause I rock now!) depending on the day and how I feel about the rest of me, that day.

Date: 2008-07-13 06:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
That's pretty unfortunate, but I can definitely say I've been somewhere similar.

It's just changed and folded, as interactions have changed while I've grown, I think...

Date: 2008-07-13 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentai.livejournal.com
Have I ever told ya'll how much I love it when you 2 talk to each other like this about this sort of thing? You are here in public and discussing s/t frankly and abstractly as if you do not already have intimate knowledge of and a long history with each other. Regardless of what you additionally say in private, before or after what is said here, the frankness and integrity of the exchanges here are very refreshing to me.

It's almost like you 2 are rational, mature human beings with separate perspectives and ideas of the surrounding world and are also equals in some type of weird interpersonal dynamic.

Refreshing and "cool", as the hip kids say nowadays.

Date: 2008-07-13 10:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Well, that's just fucking CRAZY talk, man... Crazy.

Date: 2008-07-13 05:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nausved.livejournal.com
It's strange. I don't have lustful feelings for people I don't or haven't been in love with, with exceedingly few exceptions (like maybe two or three, at most). That rules out just about everyone—even the subjects of my wildest crushes.

Thinking of a friend in a sexual manner is like thinking of my mom or my dad in a sexual manner. It makes me gag inside. When people talk of having sex, I have to block out whatever imagery that conjures.

That is not to say I don't have lustful feelings. I just have them for scenarios, not people. And the individuals in these scenarios are always anonymous; as soon as they start to take the form of someone I know (excluding those I've loved), desire is immediately dispelled.

Date: 2008-07-13 06:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
That's very strange, as it's almost exactly the opposite for me. Not for details, but if I find someone attractive, I've probably had lustful thoughts about them.

Scenarios enter into it, too, but the people have always been key.

Date: 2008-07-13 06:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentai.livejournal.com
That's mind-numbingly strange, but I digress.

I am not sure what thoughts I could contribute as you seem to have said it quite succinctly. So, I agree with you. You know, whatever THAT means. The only thing I would add is my own twist of words on the same idea which is when I've posted about falling in love with faces. I see the face and I fall in love with the idea that face has created in my head. The more she talks the better b/c that adds texture and churns the idea into a fantasy which, if stoked properly, will erupt into a ballad of our golden years, but yeah.

I have lusted a lot and there is nothing particularly wrong w/ it.
Unless, of course, it ends up owning you like in the case of being ruled by our empathy.

Date: 2008-07-13 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Yeah, I can see that. There's a single page in Transmetropolitan about that very idea, but it's very powerful.

Date: 2008-07-17 01:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raidingparty.livejournal.com
The attraction for scenarios correlates directly with a study (citation needed, please edit) in which women were more likely than men to become aroused by pornography when they had no physical attraction to the participants. And why girlporn romance novels are so successful.

Date: 2008-07-17 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nausved.livejournal.com
That's interesting. I would like to see the study, if you can find it.

I, personally, am not into romance novels (or erotic stories, etc.), though. They're too personal. Anything where characters are given an identity makes it too hard for me to get into it. If I can't imagine myself in the action, it does nothing for me. I'm not at all voyeuristic—or maybe I'm just selfish.

Plain old pornography is the same thing. Too personal—too hard to imagine myself into it, if everyone already has a name and face.

I also dislike romance movies, for similar reasons. Love is so boring when it happens to other people.

sort of to all of you in general

Date: 2008-07-13 08:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raoin.livejournal.com
taking it from that last sentence:

and at some point in time in a dream somewhere, i probably did.

Re: sort of to all of you in general

Date: 2008-07-13 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
You do have some strange dreams.

Date: 2008-07-13 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mendori.livejournal.com
There are some questions I don't answer - some doors that simply will never open.

Date: 2008-07-13 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mendori.livejournal.com
Besides, there was always that short story I wrote.

Date: 2008-07-13 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
And True.

Date: 2008-07-13 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Fair enough.

Date: 2008-07-13 02:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] firebirdgrrl.livejournal.com
Wow. Gorgeous.

Date: 2008-07-13 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Oh. Thank you.

Date: 2008-07-13 02:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] necrophonic.livejournal.com
I once coined the phrase "Lust is when you fuck the person, and love is when you actually want to talk to them the next morning"

Just being a little silly there, but it's true in the most ridiculously over-simplified way imaginable.

Date: 2008-07-13 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Yeah, I can stand behind that, though I might modify if "Lust is when you want to..."

Date: 2008-07-13 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
Wow. You've managed to articulate some of my feelings on the subject, anyway...

I make a point of never saying "I love you" when "I want you" or "I really enjoy your company" is more accurate. Just on the grounds that:

- Saying you love someone that you don't may seem kind, but having been on the receiving on of finding out it's not true, it's excessively cruel.

- I generally don't know my dates that well prior to, you know, dating them.

- It allows me to use what I think is an incredibly cute line: "I can see myself falling in love with you..." ^_^;

So yeah.

The english language visual novel, Ori Ochi Onoe, addresses this very subject, by the way. I highly recommend it: you can get for free at the www.lemmasoft.net forums. Very Not Safe For Work, but more for being suggestive then for being explicit.

Date: 2008-07-13 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nausved.livejournal.com
"Saying you love someone that you don't may seem kind, but having been on the receiving on of finding out it's not true, it's excessively cruel."

Hear, hear!

Date: 2008-07-13 04:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
The precision of language usage is Extremely important.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Date: 2008-07-13 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
Any time. My duty as a Ren'Py crack dealer (first hit's free!) is done here...

Date: 2008-07-13 07:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
Heheheh.

Date: 2008-07-13 05:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentai.livejournal.com
I agree that ones need to be accurate with the language they use, but that is only helpful when the listener is accurate with what they choose to hear and not hear.

Something is only cruel if the person committing the act intends to be hurtful. They cannot be responsible for someone else's inability to either listen fully in the first place or accept the truth afterwards.

Date: 2008-07-13 06:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm aware that it's not meant to be deliberately cruel, and in retrospect I should have shaved with Hanlon's Razor ('Never attribute to malice what stupidity alone can accomplish').

But the fact of the matter is when you say "I love you" without meaning it just to say something nice you're lying. You're setting up unrealistic expectations. And having those expectations broken hurts.

Hearing "I had a really good time," "You're really cute," and things like that makes me happy, and if I'm high enough from snorting whoever's pheromones I might even squee at it a little, without needing to hear that the girl I'm dating loves me.

And not even heaven can help you if I catch you saying "I love you too" without meaning it instead of, say, "Thank you." HULK SMASH.

Rant mode turn off.

Date: 2008-07-13 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentai.livejournal.com
Well, I apologize. I totally agree with that, but I seem to have inferred too much when I first read the comment. I've been accused of being cruel and a liar just b/c my feelings changed as I learned more about the person and that hurt me as much as you seem to have been hurt.

I assumed you were referring to that type of "I love you" and it hit home. No one wants to be lied to about love, but it is just as mean to tell someone they do not or never did love you just b/c circumstances changed and feelings with them.

Date: 2008-07-13 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
I see. Whoever did that to you could also benefit from shaving with Hanlon's...

Feelings do change, and you can fall out of love. This has also happened to me.

I'm... not sure what I'd say in that situation. This exceeds my mastery of Tact Fu.

Date: 2008-07-13 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] momentai.livejournal.com
This exceeds my mastery of Tact Fu

That makes me think you are of the rare class that understands the importance of manners and politeness, no matter the situation or at least regardless of many of them.

If that is true than I commend you and wish there were more of us.

Date: 2008-07-13 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
When you grow up with nonverbal LD, you learn ettiqute fast.

One of the best compliments I've ever received:

"You are unfailingly polite and empathetic, unlike most other people I know, who I frequently want to set on fire."

Date: 2008-07-14 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nausved.livejournal.com
"But the fact of the matter is when you say "I love you" without meaning it just to say something nice you're lying."


I think this is something everyone could work a little harder on—not just on the "I love you" thing, but matters of this sort in general. We may have the very, very best of intentions, but when we lie to one another, we are presuming that we know what is better for an individual than they themselves know.

It's not up to us to decide what will help or hurt someone else. It is up to us to trust them with the truth and hope they will make the best decision to fit the circumstances. Any attempt to inhibit someone from making their own choices (which is exactly what lying is—a type of manipulation) is, ultimately, very damaging to that individual—whether directly (e.g., they discover the lie) or indirectly (e.g., they never find out, but they lose out on the opportunity to make the best decision).

Even white lies ("No, that dress doesn't make you look fat!") can do much more harm than good, and yet we're all guilty of them.

Date: 2008-07-14 05:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
Let's test my Tact Fu here...

"It looks good on you, so who cares?" :3

Serious response to follow after I have time to think about it.

Date: 2010-05-07 02:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cailement.livejournal.com
My partner just admits that he has no fashion sense so HE thinks it looks good, but I shouldn't trust his judgment...

Date: 2008-07-13 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com
Oh, and if anyone's studied Greek philosophy, it touches on this too.

Philia = "I like you."
Storge = "You're like family."
Eros = "I want you so much..."
Agape = "I love you."

If I have the slightest doubt it's agape, I resort to declarations of philia and eros.

Date: 2010-05-07 02:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cailement.livejournal.com
Yes, I think about fucking you. Not you [livejournal.com profile] wolven in specific, but you, the masses, the plural. It has probably crossed my mind, at some random point and depending on how attractive I find you, I might have dismissed it as "Oh gods no!" or "hm, I wonder what that would actually be like." Typically speaking, I don't fantasize about people I know, TYPically speaking--I usually leave that to fictional characters, those I create or those who are created for me. Because I find it easier for me to control the fantasy if I control both parts of the fantasy, and even in my head, I can't control the proverbial you.

Part of me really wishes I was the type of person who could act on my "hm, I wonder what that would actually be like" tendencies. A good part of me wishes that we lived in a society and a genetic structure where it was okay to have sex with friends and not have it be weird the next day, or 3 years down the line. A giant part of me wishes that STDs didn’t exist and I didn’t have to worry about sleeping with everyone you’ve ever slept with to sate my curiosity.

But the biggest problem that I’ve ever had with your lust argument is that I don’t really lust for specific people. Not hard core Oh GOD I WANT YOU kind of lust. I want to have sex with people (nonspecific). I’d love to have sex with several women (preferably at separate times, but still, nonspecific). But I don’t really, necessarily want to have sex with anyone in particular.

With that said, I would like to enter relationships with several people. I would not want to have sex with them just once, I would not wish to go back to Leo afterwards. I seriously would probably be happiest if I could set up some kind of hippie commune in which a bunch of us (no names) lived together, could fuck or sleep with whoever we wanted in the commune at any time, and all had separate living spaces. I’ve mentioned the commune idea several times, but I don’t think I’ve ever said the fucking people part out loud. Hm, hope that doesn’t make it weird for people. And that’s my big problem. It would make it weird for people. Several of these people view me as “Leo’s girlfriend” or family and therefore off limits, so I don’t even know if they feel the same way about me as I do them.

Having sex with other people has actually been a bone of contention in our early relationship--no, it has never happened, but the discussion has. Leo’s hippy enough that he thinks we should be able to have sex with other people. I feel that that would hurt me greatly, and I wouldn’t want to do it to him. He said it shouldn’t matter because the sex would be meaningless. I think it WOULD matter because it was meaningless, and it wouldn’t matter so much if we were all in it together, mind, body, and heart.

Lets go back to fantasy—the basic of wants. ALL of my fantasies have plot behind them. They are never just Pirate Want to Fuck, for instance. There are characters with histories and lives who have a reason for wanting to fuck, to care. I think this is one of the reasons that good romance works for me. Because I love reading about two people, at odds with whatever, in whatever situation, overcoming it and falling in love. That’s just what does it for me. But then, to me, life is all about the stories.

Date: 2010-05-07 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cailement.livejournal.com
Read this, but didn't reply to it originally because I didn't think I had much to say on the subject. But since you requested.

Date: 2010-05-07 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolven.livejournal.com
This is precisely why I wanted you to read this. These thoughts, these explanations, this is what I was talking about, in the shop, today.

Thank you.
Page generated Mar. 16th, 2026 10:31 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios