So. A question:

[wolven7]

What do you think when you hear, read, or otherwise encounte the word "Magic[k]"?

Not what you think I mean, or what you think I want to hear.

What do you think? Do you even care about the concept?

Just give a shout out, here, and we'll talk about it.

I'm off for more beer, or acohol, in general

Comments

Twinkly even.

[tsumari.livejournal.com]

Being a person with much magic in my life I tend to smile when I hear the word; whether it's a reference to prestidigitation, chicanery, parlor tricks, religion or the actual magic in us all. I feel sorry for those who can't feel it, or those who abuse it, mislabel it or ignore it. It's also a nervous word for me, since my boss is very against any sort of witchcraft or acknowledgement of magic(k). At the same time I smile, I worry that my quality of life could quickly be hindered by the utterance of any occult reference around this guy or many of the thumpers around the office. So I smile a Mona Lisalike smile and keep it secret from those who'd rather not know. Thanks for asking, I don't get to talk about it much these days (sigh). PS I'll be down for DragonCon, Maybe I'll see ya there :)

Re: Twinkly even.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

What do you count as the mislabeling or abuse of magic?

What religious persuasion is your boss, that he rests so adamantly against, and won't listen to the many theologians who clarify that injunctions against witchcraft were against it's use for Evil, not for Good?

And I hope so. Haven't physically seen you in years.

Re: Twinkly even.

[tsumari.livejournal.com]

I see it as a mislabeling when people only think of magic in the 'this is different/supernatural therefore it's bad' or '[insert deity here] doesn't want me to have this knowledge so I shun all of this' way. Abuse of magic is intently hoarding benefits or completely neglecting giving magic its own chunk of respect, regardless of the place or entity of its origin. I can run on and on but I think you get the point.

Oh, and the bossman is a protestant flavor christian... I'd have more respect if it seemed his religion was a discipline to him, instead it seems more of a social status. Normally I'm more tolerant, but this guy goes out of his way to make me uncomfortable discussing religion. I got tired of trying to offer any new light to his world since he always found a way to make me sorry I tried. Example: Gave him a pumpkin (with a markered-on face) for halloween; immediately was told I was being offensive to him because "witches beheaded victims and laid them around their property and I was mimicking witches if I make Jack O' Lanterns..." See how that can get old? :)

Re: Twinkly even.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

That's completely ridiculous. Some days I hate people.

[raoin.livejournal.com]

right off the bat - The Cars, Magic, lyrics "uh-oh its magic, oh its magic, when i'm with you"

anyway. that out of the way, because i'm working on a thesis, magic is also what other people say it is. my favorite right now is that magic is a form of religion. not something you do in a religion, not something that bolsters your spirituality, but a religion in itself.

i think of fluffy and nonfluffy pagans.

i think of The Prestige and a host of other films.

spells and latin/greek words and potions and components and cauldrons.

i think of the card game.

i think of the security classification during world war two.

i do care about the concept. but personally dont consider myself capable of even slight-of-hand. so, apart from talking about it, i tend to stay out of it.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

What makes you think you're incapable of doing anything, in its regard?

[raoin.livejournal.com]

while i have been assured regularly that a failure rate is to be expected, i have yet to have what i would consider a success with magic itself, be that a bending of energy or just the act of seeing or feeling something that others, more capable than myself, seem to be able to see or feel. we've had this talk about the Douglas House i think, that i could easily live there without noticing the things which others have felt, seen, and even interacted with. if this were the X-files, i would be Scully before she ever has a single concrete encounter that she cant chalk up to a host of other explanations.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I can't remember; have you ever actually been to the Douglas ?

[raoin.livejournal.com]

no, in fact, you've promised several times to actually take me past there, but its never been on our way to anything.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Well, probably when you're done with the thesis.

[anarchette.livejournal.com]

sorry dude, took an accidental nap at 8ish. just now woke up. D: raincheck?

i often think of the labrynth. or something along those lines. or my lovely aunt nadine who has a house dragon. and used to tell me she would turn me into a toad.

;D

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Labyrinth is a wonderful movie.

You ever read 'Books of Magic,' by Neil Gaiman?

And I know a lot of people with similar. Friend of mine used to (and maybe still does) have a car dragon.

[photogirl630.livejournal.com]

Christmas... in the sence anything can happen.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Thanks.

[cailement.livejournal.com]

Out side of fiction and fantasy, which I read a lot, I think of magic as "another way to talk to our universe that the universe finds a little bit harder to understand." Harder than, say, science. Harder, but not impossible.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

What do you think makes it harder, rather than easier? And if it's so much harder, why do you think so many people go for it?

[cailement.livejournal.com]

Because often times there isn't physical, definable results for the masses to look at and say "look, see there? that's magic working. that's a quantifiable result that proves that magic is real." Belief in magic is one of the things (along with talent) that makes it work, when there's a lack of faith, even a little on, it affects the ablility to practice that magic. Making it harder, making it work less. But also, because a lot of times the magic itself isn't a quantifyable thing that you're trying to do (like move the whole universe to understand that you need the schedule to be made with Saturday off, or whatnot) you can never be sure if it was the magic that did it, or weither Jane heard you wanted to go to that concert and was nice, or both, or neither. Hmmm, am I just rambling? Next question.

I think MORE people would go for it if you could actually have more identifyable results. Like, serious levitation, curing deseases, etc. As is, I think people originally start going for it because it's not widely excepted. Maybe some of this is my Catholic Damage talking, but the absolute rejection of the norm in favor for the extraordinary is something that drew me to it in the first place. Then there can also be the feeling factor. When you work with magic, it feels good, which is one of the only tangible results that you can get a lot of times. I went on an astral travel today and I talked to "X" and we had a good conversation and the whole experience was a very positive one. If that experience was such a positive one, then why not do it again, or something similar. Or even, I got together with friends and we activly made a working to try to make the universe a happier place. 1) for going against the norms. 2) for thinking you can affect the universe in new and interesting ways.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're only rambling. I understand precisely what you mean, and I don't think they are Necessarily separate things. Magic, for me, bears will and intent, which allows for "coincidence," which I'm going to define as Similar and/or Sympathetic emanations or instantiations of particular patterns, which can be synchronicity When will and intent are applied to them.

Basically, when we focus on it, it put thought and effort into it, it's synchronicity, when there are more than random works, all of which lead to yet another place, then it's not just coincidence. Or something along those lines.

Now. Do you think that IF more people went for it, knowing the kinds of results they could get, if they thought about it in a different way, then it would become easier?

[cailement.livejournal.com]

absolutely. I'd like to reference Diana Wynne Jones on this one, specifically in Deep Secrets (she writes amazing multiverse fiction cleaverly disguised as young adult books, by the way)--one of the Magid who was in charge of keeping shit going the way it's suppose to takes personal credit for our universe moving closer to the magic side of the universe and away from the science side of the universe by adding stories and getting people more aware of the possibility of magic. He does this for selfish reasons. He loves living on his own Earth, but he also loves centaurs. Centaurs, by their very nature, require magic to live. So if he wants to be able to live on his own Earth and be able to interact with centaurs, then he had to get the general idea of the people to believe in magic enough to bring the magic into the world. It works so much so that in the story, a centaur shows up, and doesn't actually immediately die. Woo. I like this idea, and follow with it. The more believers that there are in the world, the more the belief response, the more magic there is. In the same vein though, the more people who believe that magic is impossible, the harder it is to effect.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Two things, one of which I'm fairly certain you've read, at this point:

InterWorld and my thesis.

Yes?

[cailement.livejournal.com]

yes, and not yet. it's saved on my harddrive, but I need it in paper form, which means I need to be very inconspicuous and alone in a computer lab. Might be able to do that tomorrow, actually . . .

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Let me know, when you get a chance.

[cailement.livejournal.com]

stupid people in the computer room using the printer. It:ll be totally obvious if I start printing that many pages right now . . . XP

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. Whenever you can. No hurry.

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

Since I'm in the market for revisiting how I look at these things anyway...

Wonder. Terror. Awe. Power. The judicious application thereof. Hacking reality/yourself to achieve a goal. Art with an effect or a use. Creativity. Soul-fire. Nonlinear causality. How good music or sex makes you feel, that sense of electricity up your spine and your head on fire. Not needing drugs to hallucinate.

Something I'm missing.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Always with a goal? What is it if it fits all the other criteria, but doesn't have a goal, in mind?

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

What is it if it fits all the other criteria, but doesn't have a goal, in mind?

Depends on the initial action. It could be the being form of magick, as opposed to the verb form, the doing. The raw stuff of it. Ritual without practical purpose is devotion, religion. Energy work without purpose is learning...so which do you mean?

Other criteria?

[wolven.livejournal.com]

The wonder, will, etc. but without the Intent, or a Goal, in mind, other than to simply Do and be in contact With... whatever it is we want to call it.

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

I would possibly define that more as devotion-immersion, Bhakti, worship in the Right sense, the kind that's not blind bowing and scraping, but taking joy in that contact.

Possibly. They overlap and bleed, too.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

So, communion, in the true sense of it?

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

Yes. Coming downstairs probably to talk more. And I copied the username wrong earlier; vonfaustus, no underscore.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw that, when I tried to click the link.

[unknownbinaries.livejournal.com]

Also, my turn to play networking: two weird shit journals you should be reading: rata_min_shin, and von_faustus.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll check them out :)

[necrophonic.livejournal.com]

I think of illusionists, magicians, and the occult. I think of it in a dictionary-like way, just a list of the things it is associated with.

Anyway, I'm reading your thesis. I'm about a quarter of the way in I guess. I'll ramble at you about it all when I'm finished with it, and have a better understanding of what you mean when you say magic, occult, etc... so that I'm not throwing words out there, and having symantics ruin the concepts I'm throwing out. I hate when that happens.

Language is a fickle mistress.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Language is, indeed, a fickle mistress. One of my main points, in my thesis.

Can't wait to hear what you think.

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

Prayers in a non-publicized format,
exercising a knowledge of cause and effect that ... well, this fits into the whole 'suitably advanced technology' bit, no? If you know that every time the cat runs to the West side of the house there's an owl on the East side, and you manage to demonstrate there's an owl on the East side without revealing the source of this knowledge, it may seem like (be?) magic. Hence 'occult' or 'arcane'.

There's also the whole awesome/awful bit. There was something else, but it seems to have disappeared.

The most important one is the proverb, "Magic Takes Time."

[wolven.livejournal.com]

And if it is merely cause and effect that we can't see, what happens when we can see it?

Everything worth having takes some time.

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

I think the idea of it being magic is that it's unknown (/arcane/occult). Playing off your thesis description of some actions being described as supernatural by those outside the culture but are perfectly natural within it.

There is also a power assigned to the unknown. Witchcraft (their prayers to their god) vs. devotion (our prayers to our god).

This is touching at the edges of my 'blah magic' idea, wherein we're more likely to effect (intentional use) that which we believe, but we're less likely to believe the awesome.

My pants have a huge, inexplicable tear in the back. It'd be awesome if a pair of pants in my size was to show up before I had to go home.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

Did they?

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

No they did not. However, a coworker who lives in my neighborhood offered me a ride all the way home.

... of course, I still need more pants. As of now I only have one pair I wear with any regularity.