Good morning: Philosophy Talk:

[wolven7]

I may have a new favourite philosopher. J.R. Lucas

"We are by our own decisions in the face of other men's actions and chance circumstances weaving the web of history on the loom of natural necessity."

Also, this Argument (summed up, in argement format, here) for what is really a combination of free will and determinism, a "compatibalism", if you will. Do you like that? Like how I just kind of threw that out there, like I coined it?

Today I think I'll talk to myself a bit, then I'll talk to others. See where that leads. I had seven hours' sleep, and weird dreams which are gone, now, but I'm here, and I need to be thinking about certain things, as well as formatting a paper submission...

I'll see you all later.

[Edit: 10.50am: Damn, that's sad.]

Comments

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

Great point about limiting the kind of acceptable examples excluding the best possible examples. Could throw something about magix in there as well. I love the critique of rationality in there.

Not sure I agree with the simplified version of his proof 100%, because robots exist that don't do exactly as programmed, and I can theorize an 'automaton' that would be able to make a mathematical proof for a previously-unexplored problem. But then, with the artificial intelligence programs you start pushing the line about whether they have free will. Wheee!

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I think any system with a consciousness has what could be called free will, on Lucas' system.

[salrushdy.livejournal.com]

qualitative difference between mathematical logicians and the rest of the population is such that the former have free will and the latter do not. by you demien latter don't have any consciousness as well,
odd, no?
if I take 1 and 2 as axioma, which is questionable by itself, his weakness is in statement 3.
If a human m is a sufficiently skillful mathematical logician (equipped with a sufficiently powerful computer if necessary) then if m is given L(m), he or she can construct T(L(m)) and 4.Determine that they are true--which L(m) cannot do . ability to create "logical system L(m) which reliably predicts H's actions in all circumstances" demands somewhat more than logical skills.

[wolven.livejournal.com]

I think that, unfortunately, we can make up for a lack of innate skill with a basic understanding of principles, and give people the tools to generate T(L(m)) (i.e. the sufficiently advanced computer.).

I say "unfortunately" because it would be nice if we could get t hat innate skill in more people.

Also the Ability to generate it isn't what gives free will, according to Lucas, but the fact that it Can be Generated.

[raidingparty.livejournal.com]

Roit, but then you have to define consciousness.