Magical theory and practice
Jun. 2nd, 2007 07:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
wolven7MDFMK - [Get Out of My Head]--- Was having some thoughts, earlier, today, and yesterday, about the nature of magic, spurred on, in part, by an episod of "Angel," and one of ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
paosparti's most recent posts. In the Angel episode in question, a girl is trying a retrieval spell to make her wayward father come home to her and her mother. She says, "I'm pretty sure it should work. Even though I spilled some Diet Coke on the book I was using, and I had to improvise..." At which point a no-eyed, three-mouthed demon materialises, rather than daddy. In paosparti's entry (you can't read, sorry), she's talking about magic and says ". . .I'm becoming more certain that the exact words, gestures or materials mean little to nothing."
Snake River Conspiracy - [Coke & Vaseline]--- I've always been of two minds about the nature of magical work, and religious ritual-- these two mindsets, to be exact. On the one hand, there is the idea that if you fuck up the slightest word, the merest curve of the circle, or the time of day, you will fuck up wildly, and get eaten by something much nastier than you. On the other hand, the idea that what really counts is not the exact words and gestures, but the feel of the thing, the will evoked. In the Hindu traditions, they teach Brahmin children the Rg Veda by sound and gesture. (The Dresden Dolls - [Necessary Evil]). Understanding is unimportant, knowledge of what it "means" is unimportant; all that matters is that the exact sounds and gestures are repeated. Otherwise, the world ceases to be. In chaos magick... Well. It's like motherfucking metaphysical Mr Potato Head. Mix and match, and whatever works, so long as it Fucking Works.
I agree with both of these systems, and the paradox of it has gotten on my nerves, when I bothered to think about it, at all. I mean, they seem diametrically opposed; how do you find the one in the other? (Sneaker Pimps - [Grazes]). Exactly, Winamp: on the periphery. Let's break this down, and build it back up.
In what I traditionally think of as "Hermetic" magic, there are formulae, rituals, exact words and gestures. It's a rigorous process, or set of processes-- a system designed to obtain certain results. There are rules to the system, and the operating procedures are strict, because they have to be. You break the rules, you pay the price, unless you've got the firepower to back yourself up, and then you've got a whole Other set of issues, on your hands. Really fun issues... But I digress. This is in opposition to what I've traditionally considered "Shamanic" working. In Shamanic works, you're dealing in feeling and intention, rather than certainty of action. There may be a few prescribed motions or words, but there is much more in the way of fluidity, flexibility, in these systems.
Negativeland - [I Am God]--- In the far extremes of each, you see where we either have to exact rules we must always follow, and literally making it up, as you go along. I, of course, advocate a middle way. As I said, in the beginning of this post, I used to be confused as to how this kind of thing could happen, but I realised, yesterday and today, what is done in each of these systems. In the former system, we find ourselves within someone else's rule-set; this is like being in a foreign country, with which you are familiar. (Placebo - [Burger Queen]). There're new laws to follow, and new penalties. In the latter, we are more soveriegn, we can deal with other entities, other forces, as we see fit, and if there are consequences, so be it. In one you are subject, in the other you are equal.
There is, as I said, a way to balance these two positions. If you know the rules of the systems from which you pick and choose, if you know the meanings of the words, and the gestures, you can approximate your work ("you can do the same with 2cc of mouse blood, and a boiled egg"). You have more freedom. Your will and knowledge of the rules, the structure of the their meaning, the spirit of the law, as well as its letter, then you can enforce new forms. The goal of most magical formulae (if you believe in intercessional magic, that is), as has been stated before, is to "speak to the universe in words it cannot ignore," and as such you need only know that the words aren't what its reacting to: it's the crystal clear meanings.
If and when you can speak to the universe in words that it understands, clear as anything, like gravity and light, and you can say to it, "But what if it were this, instead," and have it listen, "but what it rained, rather than not," "but what if this person called," "but what if the light were green, rather than red," "but what if..." et cetera, and the universe says "You know that's a Smashing Idea." And off you go, through the newly green light. You don't have to have the precise words and gestures, for that; you can imagine them as points of focus, something to clarify the mind and intention, and make your utterance perfectly clear. It's like putting on a nice suit, to go to an interview. If you're good enough, you don't have to do it, but if you don't, you have to convince them that you're good enough, the second they lay eyes on you.
Tool - [4°]--- Otherwise, you're not getting in the fucking door.
If this was clear, and rambling, rest assured, we'll get it sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.
Take your understandings, and apply them to new situations. Brilliant.
paosparti's most recent posts. In the Angel episode in question, a girl is trying a retrieval spell to make her wayward father come home to her and her mother. She says, "I'm pretty sure it should work. Even though I spilled some Diet Coke on the book I was using, and I had to improvise..." At which point a no-eyed, three-mouthed demon materialises, rather than daddy. In paosparti's entry (you can't read, sorry), she's talking about magic and says ". . .I'm becoming more certain that the exact words, gestures or materials mean little to nothing."Snake River Conspiracy - [Coke & Vaseline]--- I've always been of two minds about the nature of magical work, and religious ritual-- these two mindsets, to be exact. On the one hand, there is the idea that if you fuck up the slightest word, the merest curve of the circle, or the time of day, you will fuck up wildly, and get eaten by something much nastier than you. On the other hand, the idea that what really counts is not the exact words and gestures, but the feel of the thing, the will evoked. In the Hindu traditions, they teach Brahmin children the Rg Veda by sound and gesture. (The Dresden Dolls - [Necessary Evil]). Understanding is unimportant, knowledge of what it "means" is unimportant; all that matters is that the exact sounds and gestures are repeated. Otherwise, the world ceases to be. In chaos magick... Well. It's like motherfucking metaphysical Mr Potato Head. Mix and match, and whatever works, so long as it Fucking Works.
I agree with both of these systems, and the paradox of it has gotten on my nerves, when I bothered to think about it, at all. I mean, they seem diametrically opposed; how do you find the one in the other? (Sneaker Pimps - [Grazes]). Exactly, Winamp: on the periphery. Let's break this down, and build it back up.
In what I traditionally think of as "Hermetic" magic, there are formulae, rituals, exact words and gestures. It's a rigorous process, or set of processes-- a system designed to obtain certain results. There are rules to the system, and the operating procedures are strict, because they have to be. You break the rules, you pay the price, unless you've got the firepower to back yourself up, and then you've got a whole Other set of issues, on your hands. Really fun issues... But I digress. This is in opposition to what I've traditionally considered "Shamanic" working. In Shamanic works, you're dealing in feeling and intention, rather than certainty of action. There may be a few prescribed motions or words, but there is much more in the way of fluidity, flexibility, in these systems.
Negativeland - [I Am God]--- In the far extremes of each, you see where we either have to exact rules we must always follow, and literally making it up, as you go along. I, of course, advocate a middle way. As I said, in the beginning of this post, I used to be confused as to how this kind of thing could happen, but I realised, yesterday and today, what is done in each of these systems. In the former system, we find ourselves within someone else's rule-set; this is like being in a foreign country, with which you are familiar. (Placebo - [Burger Queen]). There're new laws to follow, and new penalties. In the latter, we are more soveriegn, we can deal with other entities, other forces, as we see fit, and if there are consequences, so be it. In one you are subject, in the other you are equal.
There is, as I said, a way to balance these two positions. If you know the rules of the systems from which you pick and choose, if you know the meanings of the words, and the gestures, you can approximate your work ("you can do the same with 2cc of mouse blood, and a boiled egg"). You have more freedom. Your will and knowledge of the rules, the structure of the their meaning, the spirit of the law, as well as its letter, then you can enforce new forms. The goal of most magical formulae (if you believe in intercessional magic, that is), as has been stated before, is to "speak to the universe in words it cannot ignore," and as such you need only know that the words aren't what its reacting to: it's the crystal clear meanings.
If and when you can speak to the universe in words that it understands, clear as anything, like gravity and light, and you can say to it, "But what if it were this, instead," and have it listen, "but what it rained, rather than not," "but what if this person called," "but what if the light were green, rather than red," "but what if..." et cetera, and the universe says "You know that's a Smashing Idea." And off you go, through the newly green light. You don't have to have the precise words and gestures, for that; you can imagine them as points of focus, something to clarify the mind and intention, and make your utterance perfectly clear. It's like putting on a nice suit, to go to an interview. If you're good enough, you don't have to do it, but if you don't, you have to convince them that you're good enough, the second they lay eyes on you.
Tool - [4°]--- Otherwise, you're not getting in the fucking door.
If this was clear, and rambling, rest assured, we'll get it sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.
Take your understandings, and apply them to new situations. Brilliant.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 12:08 am (UTC)I was thinking about Wizzards and Witches with pointy hats the whole time. Also have you read Wintersmith yet? Or any of they tiffany novels by Pratchett!
I was also happy to see the 2ccs of mouse blood and boiled egg. But I also wonder if Albert could have done the rite of Ash'kente backwards to become deaths servant if he'd done it with 2cc of mouse blood and a boiled egg.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 12:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 12:41 am (UTC)'"Four cc of mouse blood," said the Senior Wrangler mournfully. "You don't even need that. You can use two bits of wood, and an egg. It has to be a fresh egg, though."
'"Why?"
'"I suppose the mouse feels happier about it."
'"No, I mean the egg."
'"Oh, who knows how an egg feels."'
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 02:01 am (UTC)And about traffic lights, they respond more often if you ask them politely to change to green. I found many things like you better if you are nice to them :)
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 02:13 am (UTC)My will is vast (take that in the Crowleyan sense, if you want), and my belief like a titanium alloy, but arrayed against rest of existence, it gets a little tricky. Knowing what'll help get me there is still an act of will, but also wisdom.
And many believe, as I said, that it is the words, themselves, and not the understanding, will, or intent, behind them, that makes them work. If more of them believe that more strongly than you believe the contrary, you're kind of fucked.
I direct you to the following:
Xander: Yeah, I mean it's not like you can just say 'Liber ignatium' and then--
*Book catches Fire, Xander shuts it quickly*
Giles: Don't speak Latin, in front of the books.
oh!
Date: 2007-06-03 05:33 am (UTC);)
And don't forget the power of the words "I want."
Re: oh!
Date: 2007-06-03 03:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 04:14 pm (UTC)If I am doing a goetic working and step outside my circle and think to myself, "Oh shit, that was a mistake that could have bad consequences!" it wouldn't be surprising to find that was the case. There may or may not be any fact-of-the-matter about demons and circles, but if I beleive that there are certain ways that demons and circles interact, I am basically operating within that framework of rules at the time of the working.
The other side of the coin, more freeform shamanic magickal activity, also responds in this way. If I create a mantra sigil, fill my head with drugs, and gyrate around chanting that glossolia style until I go berzerk, it will tend to yield results only if I believe that what I am doing will actually work (which is somewhat built into the thing, seeing as I am doing the ritual at all...)
So to put it more generally, chaos magick would have us construct or assume a belief system, and then follow the rules within it to pursue the goal. What exactly the rules are is entirely arbitrary; what is more important (and difficult*) is the ability to put oneself into a state of complete belief in the reality of that set of rules - starting with forgetting that you are tricking the system by using metabelief in the first place...
* I say it is difficult, but it is also very easy since we do it constantly already. I suppose I mean it can be challenging to TRULY assume beliefs which contradict our running base-level belief programs ("I am a person" "I am in my bedroom" "There is no such thing as Cthulhu" etc.)
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 05:17 pm (UTC)The key is more the ratio to which it each is applied, the context in Which they are applied, and the resulting superstructure of the work.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 06:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 06:15 pm (UTC)In the former system, we find ourselves within someone else's rule-set; this is like being in a foreign country, with which you are familiar. There're new laws to follow, and new penalties. In the latter, we are more soveriegn, we can deal with other entities, other forces, as we see fit, and if there are consequences, so be it. In one you are subject, in the other you are equal.
Not necessarily. In the former, there is simply more of a hard hierarchy, but you are often the one ordering the whateverthefuckitis around. Why else would you pin it in a circle/triangle/heptagon of Art and threaten it with God's wrath unless it behaves nicely? I really do think that that is my major problem with very structured workings. It's either grovelling or smacking something around until it listens, and I'm a big fan of convincing through mutual favours or (as you said) convincing said allies/Universe that it's a good idea, and also potentially fun.
The trappings of all systems...are for resonance and context, and to drive the point home. I've always seen the difference as mostly how you stand. Do you tend more to have one foot Here and one foot There at all times, does it all flow together, or do you like a neat division between your Real World(tm) and your Magickal/Astral place?
There really is no point to this. It could be rambled about for a good long while, remain relevant, and not reach a point. :P
no subject
Date: 2007-06-03 07:43 pm (UTC)And yeah, but this was more to get people's head's working on their form of magic, and maybe try some new techniques.